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 Post subject: Re: ECF
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:41 pm 
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Ben_Edgell wrote:
5. Its difficult to state what the ECF provides to the average club player in return for a membership fee. Beyond the grade each year, its difficult to answer.

If you rephrase the question slightly, it's easier to answer. How about "what does the ECF provide that an average club player might plausibly make use of?". Then, in addition to the grading system, we have:

    The ECF Tournament Calendar
    The national stages of the County Championships
    The British Championships
    Being the interface between English players and the FIDE rating list

That's a pretty solid bunch of stuff that people here may or may not have some interest in using. Additionally, of course, the ECF has a role in sending England teams off to various events such as the Olympiad (which may well be of interest to amateur players even if they can't take part directly).

The fundamental point here is that what the ECF concentrates on is stuff that is best co-ordinated at the national level. There's not much the ECF could do to improve the workings of the Bristol League, even if it had good reason to.


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 Post subject: Re: ECF
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:44 pm 
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Jack has produced an interesting and illuminating list because at the heart of this may what an average, to use Ben's term, person wants or demands from the ECF in return for the money. I class myself as an average player and if I looked at the list my thoughts would be:

The ECF Tournament Calendar - Never used it or looked it. I presume this is a list of tournaments?
The national stages of the County Championships - I have played a few County games but have never been an active or interested participant. I am genuinely loyal to my club first and would not miss this.
The British Championships - My chances of going to this are remote due to the fact that I probably won't qualify and I work so am unable to commit to the time off. I have holidays but my wife insists these are not spent on chess, rather unreasonably.
Being the interface between English players and the FIDE rating list - I do not have a FIDE rating and don't particularly need one.

Different people will have different demands but none of the above are likely to be that important to people of my ability or below I guess. In fact it may not be an ability issue but rather how much chess you are likely to play. If you are a casual player then the ECF is not likely to give you anything. If you take chess more seriously then the ECF is important for the reasons Jack has given. He also makes an important point about the fact that the organisation presumably sponsors the internationals, junior and senior, so there is a patriotism element.

John mentions that it is happening so we should just make it work. That is the correct view if leaving the ECF is completely out of the question. I understand and sympathise with this approach but I would humbly say that this assumes that any consideration of not implementing the scheme is pointless. It may be of course but I would personally be interested in hearing from more people who fall in the "average" category like me.

I also have to say that I have tried not to give my opinion because I feel that it would not be a fair reflection of the archetypal Bristol League player. (You may have guessed my views anyway of course). Although I live in Bristol I also play in Gwent, am Welsh and get a WCU grading for nothing. So I have an alternative which others may not so I feel it would be unfair for me to vote either on the forum or at the AGM.


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 Post subject: Re: ECF
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:01 am 
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PaulHatchett wrote:
The ECF Tournament Calendar - Never used it or looked it. I presume this is a list of tournaments?

It is indeed.

Quote:
The British Championships - My chances of going to this are remote due to the fact that I probably won't qualify and I work so am unable to commit to the time off. I have holidays but my wife insists these are not spent on chess, rather unreasonably.


It's not just the championship itself - the event includes tournaments for players of all ratings, and has a number of events that don't particularly require time off (such as the weekend congresses, or the one-day rapidplays).


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 Post subject: Re: ECF
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:54 am 
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Location: Cotford St. Luke
PaulHatchett wrote:
The ECF Tournament Calendar - Never used it or looked it. I presume this is a list of tournaments?
The national stages of the County Championships - I have played a few County games but have never been an active or interested participant. I am genuinely loyal to my club first and would not miss this.
The British Championships - My chances of going to this are remote due to the fact that I probably won't qualify and I work so am unable to commit to the time off. I have holidays but my wife insists these are not spent on chess, rather unreasonably.
Being the interface between English players and the FIDE rating list - I do not have a FIDE rating and don't particularly need one.


My chances to qualify for a British Championship event are mostly zero to nothing BUT I came close to qualify twice. On the other hand it would be impossible for me to play due to work and University commitments and mostly due to the costs. But there is hope :shock: : I heard the 2013 British Championships are in Torbay so the costs would be manageable.


PaulHatchett wrote:
John mentions that it is happening so we should just make it work. That is the correct view if leaving the ECF is completely out of the question. I understand and sympathise with this approach but I would humbly say that this assumes that any consideration of not implementing the scheme is pointless. It may be of course but I would personally be interested in hearing from more people who fall in the "average" category like me.


I think if you play chess in any federation you should pay a fee to the federation. They (the federation) then provide the work nationwide so everything is under one hat. I personally think splitting up from the ECF and perhaps create your own ratings, rules etc. isn't the way forward.
I also think the English chess federation should abolish the ECF rating and should switch to FIDE rating but that is a different matter completely.


I think Paul makes an interesting point regarding the ECF. I would consider myself an average chess player but I use the ECF a lot in regards to tournament information, latest news and mostly discussions in the ECF forum; and not only about chess.

I think that most chess players get their information from other members of their club. It definitely feels like this in my chess club in Taunton. Most of the information provided is from active players who play a lot of tournaments and therefore find out news from other chess players. I myself found out about the proposal in the Gatwick tournament last June.
It was actually the same with the new proposal, which most members until the AGM, haven’t heard of. So do you think that is the fault of the ECF or the fault of the chess player who doesn’t keep up to date with the information flow?

In my humble opinion it probably is mostly the fault of the ECF who in recent times seems to deal with internal problems!!!

On a different point regarding the scheme: I can’t understand that players are afraid that they have to pay more. Compare to other sports chess is actually quite cheap. Most memberships in other sports are much higher and costs for equipment are much higher as well. Mind you in some tournaments in the US you have to bring your own chess board, chess pieces and chess clock!!!!

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Nullius addictus iurare in verba magistri - I am not bound to believe in the word of any master

All Comments represents my own views and not necessary the view of Taunton or Tiverton Chess Club


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 Post subject: Re: ECF
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:21 am 
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In my opinion the most important consideration is that we should try not to lose players.

If we adopt the scheme then presumably the league no longer has to pay game fees and can pass this saving onto the clubs, which
can pass the saving onto their members. What would a local grading system cost to administer? Taking these factors into account,
how much would it cost to adopt the membership scheme. Would this cost actually put anyone off? Would anyone stop playing in the
league if the games weren't graded nationally?

I propose we should consider whether to grade our congresses seperately from whether we grade the league. How many players would be put off by the extra £6 - game fee saving, how many players would be put off by the games not being graded?

From this perspective my intuition is that we would be better off adopting the membership scheme for both leagues and congresses.

From a self-interested perspective I would also be in favour of the scheme since I play Fide rated chess anyway and would prefer my league matches to be graded nationally. I doubt the decision would make any difference to my attendance at league matches or local congresses.


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 Post subject: Re: ECF
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:58 pm 
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There should be an email being circulated in the very near future encouraging club secretaries to ensure that all of their members are aware of the Membership Scheme and are able to present an opinion on behalf of their respective clubs for the AGM come the end of the season.

The LMC made every possible effort to get the opinions of clubs prior to mandating me to vote against the Membership Scheme at the ECF AGM, but in spite of this a number of clubs failed to reply. I can't emphasise highly enough how important it is that we get opinions from as many clubs as possible in time for our AGM.


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 Post subject: Re: ECF
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:59 pm 
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It seems to me that people do not like change. I think that the membership rules should be very simple and the fee structure also should be simple. The new proposals, by and large, look simple to me. The only thing I don't like is the extra work put on organisers to check what is correct in terms of memberships and fees.
The new proposals are very similar to the structure the the English Table Tennis adminstraters brought in about 5 years ago. The arguments and horror stories are repeated here. The reality is that very little has changed. No-one in my knowledge has gone bust paying the new fees despite complaining very loudly beforehand about the extra cost. At the end of the day 35p per week is good value.


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 Post subject: Re: ECF
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:18 pm 
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Ben said; "The alternative would be to pay a game fee at a significantly higher rate (most likely £2 per game), and pay a set fee of £6 on top of the entry fee for each congress you wish to enter."

Ben, are you sure this is right? Surely if you pay £6 extra for one congress, this would bring your contribution up to Silver level, and qualify you for other congresses? Or have I got that wrong?

Graham

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I slept, and dreamt that life was Beauty,
I woke, and found that life was Duty.


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 Post subject: Re: ECF
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:20 pm 
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Hi Graham,

Quoting from the ECF's Funding Proposal Paper:

"GRADED CONGRESSES

There will be a fee of £6 payable for each non-member or Bronze member taking part. In the case of Bronze members, the £6 will be deemed to be the fee required to upgrade to Silver membership and the individual’s membership category will be adjusted accordingly."

So any Bronze member who pays the £6 becomes a Silver member, whilst for anyone who is not a member its a payment purely for that congress, and the individual will have to pay £6 on top of the entry fee charged to members each time he/ she enters a congress.


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 Post subject: Re: ECF
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:11 pm 
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And, of course, all these £6, whether members or not, will be payable to the ECF. Never mind chess players, I wonder how many treasurers English chess will lose...

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Graham


I slept, and dreamt that life was Beauty,
I woke, and found that life was Duty.


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